tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post4799138809792727549..comments2024-01-07T04:57:21.347-07:00Comments on Pithless Thoughts: Conspicuous PietySteve Robinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-81330548607207015682012-03-02T09:46:53.075-07:002012-03-02T09:46:53.075-07:00I'm surprised that Polamalu hasn't come un...I'm surprised that Polamalu hasn't come under heavier scrutiny. I consider his incessant crossing of himself to be infinitely more annoying and misguided than any of Tebow's piety. At least Tebow's piety, as insufferable as it is, bares a certain consistency with his faith, i.e. the belief that God really does care about everything (even football) and really wants Tim to succeed that He may receive some glory. But for Polamalu, he should, as an Orthodox, be keenly aware of two facts: 1) God does not give a damn about football, and 2) even if He did, chances are He's not charmed by the crossing of oneself at mach speed in a manner that is reminiscent of strumming a banjo. <br /><br />For what it's worth, in the realm of piety in professional sports, I prefer the Barry Bonds approach, as he would, in particularly flashy manner, cross himself with his glove (and over his entire upper body at that .... oh how Orthodox....), nonchalantly catch a fly ball, flip it into his throwing hand, and toss it back to the infield, knowing good and well that he did it in his own strength, without the assistance of the incorporeals.Joseph Schmitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03840363740618795570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-39201052122335332812012-02-22T17:25:16.499-07:002012-02-22T17:25:16.499-07:00I think that because I am so concerned about keepi...I think that because I am so concerned about keeping my facial skin beautiful I should subject myself to facial flagellation this Lent, so that I learn humility and God loves me more. Plus when people ask why there are open wounds on my face I can witness to them.Ochlophobist https://www.blogger.com/profile/13751003558600087713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-3742176244581731762012-02-21T14:16:17.146-07:002012-02-21T14:16:17.146-07:00Good thoughts all around. I have an icon in my cu...Good thoughts all around. I have an icon in my cube and I do cross myself in public, though my concern isn’t with offending people, it’s rather the other end of the spectrum: I find that I’m incredibly uncomfortable and worried about what people will think of me. Now as a 45 year old adult you would think I should be way past being concerned what others think, but apparently I am not. I feel bad and guilty about such petty things, and as others have mentioned it seems in some ways that I am ashamed to acknowledge Jesus in public (before the Father). I realize it’s more complicated than proof-texting but it does make me wonder why this is such a big deal to me. Perhaps this should be a point of confession for me during Great Lent. Thanks for the post Steve, great stuff!Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02091285114358709692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-41408142610378420952012-02-21T09:19:25.731-07:002012-02-21T09:19:25.731-07:00Modestinus, Jeremiah and David, I agree "self...Modestinus, Jeremiah and David, I agree "self-conciousness" is not a good measure, but as David pointed out "other conciousness" is, which is the point of the original post. I would probably say that we should be other concious enough that some things we do as "second nature" aren't so second nature we neglect to see their impact on others. All in all, I don't think in general crossing ones self would be deadly to a relationship, but as David pointed out it can be a speedbump. The uniformity of the Old Believer's piety in Church would not necessarily be a good thing outside of a Church service or setting.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-81580996031793528742012-02-21T09:06:14.806-07:002012-02-21T09:06:14.806-07:00Modestinus,
Not everyone is lucky enough to have ...Modestinus,<br /><br />Not everyone is lucky enough to have all they think and do strike them as utterly obvious. Some have to struggle; and that may be cause for pity, but not scorn.<br /><br />Anyway, the principle "don't do anything that makes you self-conscious" seems like a pretty bad one. The reason the crossings and bows of the Old Believers you mention come naturally is because they are for them part of an ingrained habit. Habits develop in stages, and the earliest stages are almost always accompanied by a feeling of self-consciousness. To stop at that stage is to refuse to grow. One reason to cross yourself even when you feel self-conscious is in the hope that soon it will not be self-conscious.Jeremiahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-35188734202112943382012-02-20T07:38:45.436-07:002012-02-20T07:38:45.436-07:00Jeremiah's post has expressed my thoughts on t...Jeremiah's post has expressed my thoughts on this matter very succinctly. <br /><br />In most situations, is a quick crossing of oneself before a meal really so "in your face" as we're making it out to be? I'm not so sure. <br /><br />The only exception I can think of (in my own case) is when I am among certain Protestant Christians who are praying before a meal--I don't think I should cross myself when my Dad blesses the food, because I'm pretty sure he'd take that to mean: "Hey, look how Orthodox we are!" Even that exception stems mostly from the nature of our relationship, and the fact that we were in conflict over my decision to convert.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-24611689597506960532012-02-19T15:58:05.165-07:002012-02-19T15:58:05.165-07:00The fact this is even being discussed is pretty da...The fact this is even being discussed is pretty darn absurd. The moment you become self-conscious of Crossing yourself in public is the second you should stop. <br /><br />With that said, I've never actually seen anyone "Tebow," but I've certainly seen the Orthodox equivalent 500,000 times. Whatever. To this day I really don't know who was being sincere and who was putting on a show...well, wait, never mind -- of course I did. I just knew I wasn't "supposed" to think about it. If there is anything to love about Old Believer piety (and I actually think there are several things to love about it), its not all of the prostrations, but rather the strict uniformity of every Cross, bow, prostration, and kiss. There's no way in hell you can know if someone is being sincere, fraudulent, or -- more likely than not -- too scared/respectful to be the jerk who breaks ranks. But for the rest of Orthodoxy, its a free-for-all, both in and outside of church building. I guess that's true in Catholicism, too, but the only Catholics you see crossing themselves a lot outside of Mass are old ladies and baseball players. That's fine with me.modestinushttp://modestinus.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-61630981871524736002012-02-19T13:15:02.097-07:002012-02-19T13:15:02.097-07:00This is a great discussion, and one I've wonde...This is a great discussion, and one I've wondered about often. I don't usually cross myself before meals (or even pray), mainly because I'm forgetful (and partly because I'm prideful). But I guess I usually think I should. <br /><br />A distinction might be made between public piety and piety in public, where the difference is precisely that the former is done for others and the latter for oneself. What are the considerations in favor of foregoing the latter for fear of the former? The only that have come out so far that I can see are (1) offending others and (2) finding a sense of pride in one's religiosity and (3) putting the Cross to shame. <br /><br />None of these seem particularly good, at least in my own case. (1) I honestly can't think of anyone who would be *offended* by my crossing myself. Some might think less of me, or feel a bit uncomfortable, but I don't think those are very significant. (2) I admit this is a danger, but, as I said, I am equally prone to being ashamed of my religion. This might be where some spiritual direction is needed, but insofar as I worry more about the latter, crossing myself in public might be a good combative. And (3) seems to be a bit of a slippery slope - if I am worried about this, shouldn't I do my best just to keep my Christianity completely hidden, given my sinfulness. <br /><br />I guess my thought about this particular issue, at least when it comes to crossing ourselves before a meal, is this: This is just what we do before meals, we should do it in a non-flashy way, but also not be ashamed to be seen doing it. (Cf. Tertullian, writing in a time of general persecution: "in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross")Jeremiahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-26640938031273951232012-02-19T09:46:27.870-07:002012-02-19T09:46:27.870-07:00Matushka, thank you for the quote. I agree there a...Matushka, thank you for the quote. I agree there are certain things that are "right", especially morally. However St. Nicodemus and many of the other saints were writing about Orthodox behavior in a context of an "Orthodox culture" and nation where it was the norm, not an abberation nor one of 10,000 brands of Christianity. What is "right" in terms of a pious custom done publicly in OUR context and their effect on our relationships with non-Orthodox in a cultural context where Orthodoxy is virtually unknown and "evangelical-in-your-face "Christianity" is obnoxious and a stumbling block, I think, is not addressed by some of the Saint's writings. For me it is a matter of discerning which "right" pious custom is "expedient" in certain situations.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-11835082252965960442012-02-19T08:50:32.330-07:002012-02-19T08:50:32.330-07:00I wouldn't normally comment on this since the ...I wouldn't normally comment on this since the question was directed at me. But, just today our priest read from St. Nikodemus on scandals (unfortunately this text is not in English). St. Nikodemus says that we should be careful not create scandalize others (ie. create stumbling blocks for them). But when something is correct we should do it, whether or not someone becomes scandalized, because if the other person is scandalized in those circumstances he is so for the wrong reasons. So, the example given was when we walk in front of an Orthodox Church we make our cross even if another will be scandalized because it is the right thing to do. This sounded awfully similar to whether or not we should cross ourselves in public before eating, so that's way I've shared it. Whereas, as St. Paul said today, we could avoid eating meat - and similar things - if it were to scandalize our brother, but we should not avoid confessing Christ when we should.matushka constantinahttp://lessonsfromamonastery.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-27191941744068240212012-02-18T14:49:02.947-07:002012-02-18T14:49:02.947-07:00Joseph, Indeed the comments have taken twists and ...Joseph, Indeed the comments have taken twists and turns but in most ways I think, still addressing the points of the original point perhaps on a more personal level for the commenters. As someone pointed out, in a perfect world with perfect motives this wouldn't be an issue. I agree with your points regarding relationships which is (I think) at the heart of the original post's focus: what does public piety do to our relationships with unbelievers. We could run a gamut of "Orthodox behavior" from a discreet sign of the Cross to demanding time from our employers as our "religious rights" to do 3rd, 6th and 9th Hours during our work day and conspicuously pray them in our cubicles with bows and prostrations. I agree that there is no "objectivity" of pious behavior and that was the thrust of the original post, it is judged by those who watch and is thus relational. If it were not, it would not be an issue. It is only in that sense that making the sign of the Cross is "for one's self" if it must be done discreetly to avoid being perceived as "overly pious" and perhaps closing the door on a potential relationship. <br /><br />I can't remember who I read years ago, but he said there are things that belong to the Church and in the Church and are not meant to be paraded before the world (that is why the Eucharist used to be "private"). He said "the Gospel belongs to the world (preaching and evangelism), worship and prayer belongs to the Church". I liked that. I think that may sum up some of my thoughts that we shouldn't see or use "prayer" as an evangelistic method nor make it a litmus test of one's "boldness" as a Christian before the world. Thanks for the excellent thoughts.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-79415099180472474572012-02-18T11:12:05.609-07:002012-02-18T11:12:05.609-07:00I see a subtle (or maybe not so subtle) change fro...I see a subtle (or maybe not so subtle) change from the O.P. creeping in. At the beginning, we were talking about "really standing up for Christ" and "self sacrificial love for one's neighbor". But now things have flip-flopped: doing things for oneself is being praised, Jesus supposedly condemned public piety (!), and the idea of things being objective is now showing its head. It's always hard to tell if I am taking these words in a way other than they were meant due not only to the general inadequacy of language but the further limitation of words alone, but I figured these would be helpful points in any case.<br /><br />First, we need to be careful when we talk about doing things for ourselves. Ideally, our lives should be selfless. That doesn't simply mean less and less selfish, but living with the realization that we have our being through others. We only exist, in an ontological sense, because we exist in relation to other persons (especially the Persons of the Trinity, Who sustain us first and foremost). Our lives should reflect this fact: everything we do should be for others (especially the Persons of the Trinity), whether it be what we call "piety", our "work", "entertainment", or anything else.<br /><br />Second, Jesus did not condemn public piety as such (like the Divine Liturgy, for instance...), but piety done to glorify the "self". This is why, while telling us on one hand to go into our closets, He also told us to be as lights shining before men. In an ironic sort of way (at least ironic to us today), our actions are selfish because we care about others too <i>little</i>, not too much! That is, we try by our actions to make others give us some of their own life (attention, praise, etc) rather then giving our lives for them. This is a tough thing to comprehend, and a tough thing to even speak about, but if we don't make the radical transition from trying to be less selfish (the attainment of which can itself become a selfish passion) to complete selflessness wherein we take no thought of ourselves at all and live only for others (primarily the Persons of the Trinity), it just isn't love.<br /><br />Third, we cannot divorce the action from the heart behind the action. There are no such things as objective actions and no such thing as objective truth. Sometimes we use these terms for the sake of convenience, but we must be aware that the actual concepts are pagan <i>to the core</i>. We believe in Absolute, Relative, Personal Truth: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Absolute, for the Trinity is without change. Relative, for they exist in a relationship and we exist the same way: only by being in some type of relationship with them. Personal, for they are Persons, not impersonal objects, ideas, values, laws, codes, or "things". Thus, there is no objectively good thing or action. Something is good only in so much that it reflects the Absolute Nature of Divinity, exists in and works to support a genuine relationship, and has as its beginning and end the love of persons. I don't think I need to go into the many lives of saints whose actions did not fit into to the modern, secular, pseudo-Orthodox pattern of behavior and morality or the many heretics who were, also by today's crazy "standards", near-perfect churchmen to demonstrate this.<br /><br />I don't really want to say much about the O.P. itself. I do like Thomas' short comment, though; I think it captures my general thoughts fairly well, at least as I understand it in the light of what I've just written (especially my second point).Joseph Barabbas Theophorushttp://jbt.name/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-53596114632148526502012-02-18T08:32:30.736-07:002012-02-18T08:32:30.736-07:00Fr. Obadiah, your comment reminds me of St. Paul&#...Fr. Obadiah, your comment reminds me of St. Paul's statement, "I bear the marks of Christ in my flesh", referring to his scars of persecution. Perhaps we have exchanged making the sign of the Cross for bearing the signs of the Cross as our "witness" because the only persecution we generally have in our country and culture is political marginalization, Hollywood caricatures of our worst expressions and getting our feelings hurt.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-12330879745606610952012-02-18T04:12:29.581-07:002012-02-18T04:12:29.581-07:00Most acts I keep relatively private, but if someon...Most acts I keep relatively private, but if someone were to see me in the act of self-flagellation during my lunch break, I would explain what it meant, obviously. My body is my temple, and it's covered 73% by icons tatooed throughout various periods of my life, ie: Salve Regina in Latin on my left abdomen from when I successfully exorcised 100 demons from my ex-gay son. There are also my beaded necklaces, 24k gold icon rings on (right hand only) and various scar-icons on my chest and arms - but these are covered by clothing.Fr. Obadiah van Jonesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-76674218135290837532012-02-17T21:52:24.057-07:002012-02-17T21:52:24.057-07:00Anon, Ah...more to think about. This just struck m...Anon, Ah...more to think about. This just struck me. If we have an issue with pride, do we work on pride by doing something that Jesus condemned (public displays of piety) that embarrasses us to do in order to get over our pride. Why not do something that has no impact on other people's attitudes toward "people of faith" and God to work on our pride. Why not do something humiliating like wear mismatching clothes or a bad haircut or not wear deodorant? Pride is pride and there are lots of ways to work on it than Tebowing or "praying on streetcorners".Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-84408889490201996262012-02-17T20:28:42.270-07:002012-02-17T20:28:42.270-07:00I currently don't cross myself in public prima...I currently don't cross myself in public primarily because I'm afraid people will think I'm weird--that doesn't seem like a very noble reason. But then, my motives don't necessarily have any bearing on whether or not the act is worth doing--Still, the fact remains that I don't cross myself in order to protect my pride.<br /><br />s-p said that when he does make the sign of the cross in public, he does so for himself, and not for others. That seems like a good guideline. It's possible to imagine that praying in public would not be such a problem, were it not for our prideful purposes. <br /><br />As far as basing the choice between crossing/not crossing on how I expect people will react to my piety--I don't think that I'm in a place where I can accurately predict whether they will take offense or not. It's such an unusual act in my neck of the woods, I'd bet the reaction would mostly be neutral. Who knows? <br /><br />Here is my main question: In a more perfect world, ought not crossing oneself be a normal commonplace acknowledgment of the way the world is? Like eating healthy food, or putting oil in my car, isn't it something I ought to be able to do for my own good, without having to worry about offending others or inflating my pride?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-11183352201895113702012-02-17T11:25:54.022-07:002012-02-17T11:25:54.022-07:00Thomas, agreed the preaching of the cross can be a...Thomas, agreed the preaching of the cross can be an offense, but is doing prayer in public "preaching" or is it giving preemptive offense so the preaching won't be heard? As s-p mentioned, Jesus condemned public piety, not evangelism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-90616580021182074752012-02-17T09:55:26.066-07:002012-02-17T09:55:26.066-07:00IMHO, as long as one's life consistently refle...IMHO, as long as one's life consistently reflects the piety one displays outwardly in such gestures, I wouldn't see a problem. Crossing oneself, or praying before eating, and then yelling at the server over some perceived omission, *would* be a problem. As far as making others uncomfortable, I remember Paul's words: "...but we preach (kerusso - proclaim openly) Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness....) 1 Corinthians 1:23Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01264101908750611127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-57797388802354860992012-02-17T09:44:39.220-07:002012-02-17T09:44:39.220-07:00Och-
I've been warned about messages that s...Och-<br /> I've been warned about messages that start with,"God sent me to give you this message". I hope my naivety is tempered with a fragment of common sense.<br /> But I love your words like a bucket of cold water splashed in the face. Thank you for being your brother's keeper.toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07788920936014319970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-47388333022815971892012-02-16T23:36:40.298-07:002012-02-16T23:36:40.298-07:00This is such a great post. Thanks as always for th...This is such a great post. Thanks as always for the common sense and the honesty. <br /><br />And I like the idea that I want to behave in front of co-workers and whoever else in such a way that IF I cross myself, they aren't surprised. "Oh, that explains it." Something like that.Gracehttp://www.this-side-of-glory.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-21463666221842411772012-02-16T22:17:22.873-07:002012-02-16T22:17:22.873-07:00Sorry for not reading all previous comments before...Sorry for not reading all previous comments before posting, but my bed is calling. The prophet Daniel has been on my mind much and it seems to me that his actions were both faithful and discrete (Daniel 6:11). He might be a model for us, neither changing his habit of prayer, nor shunning the open window. That being said, I cross myself before meals in public and in private. I find that this is a powerful habit and in the past when I have allowed myself to shirk it in company, I soon find myself eating unblessed food in private too.amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04855155341038454366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-55454128753756735582012-02-16T21:32:24.781-07:002012-02-16T21:32:24.781-07:00Och, you are bad, bad, bad. But you knew that... :...Och, you are bad, bad, bad. But you knew that... :)Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-47482708931094175612012-02-16T19:12:55.310-07:002012-02-16T19:12:55.310-07:00todd,
God sent me to give you this message. You ...todd,<br /><br />God sent me to give you this message. You must now wear a cross outside of your shirt. It must be at least 12" long and weigh at least 2 lbs. Instead of a chain to hold the cross on, you are to use barbed wire. If you wear a coat in winter, it must be on the outside of the coat. It you swim in summer, you better swim with this puppy on. You might want to get another tetanus shot.<br /><br />Cheers!Ochlophobist https://www.blogger.com/profile/13751003558600087713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-65444082117544897152012-02-16T16:43:44.608-07:002012-02-16T16:43:44.608-07:00Fr. Benedict, I hope no one takes my personal opin...Fr. Benedict, I hope no one takes my personal opinion/actions as "spiritual direction". As I indicated, it is an open discussion. <br /><br />I've thought more about it today and here are some further considerations:<br /><br />How did doing public displays of personal piety become defined as "standing up for" or "being counted as for Christ" when Jesus Himself told us to do our personal piety and religious traditions in our closets? The sign of the Cross and prayer (which the sign of the Cross is) are NOT to be done publicly but out of sight. It seems to me that things that belong to the realm of pious actions or ritual are primarily acts of prayer, worship, devotion and liturgy which belong to and in those contexts. The "crucified LIFE" (being an icon of the love of Christ to our neighbor) belongs to relationships, and when in conflict love trumps ritual and pious tradition. The Gospel is clear on that. <br /><br />I am not sure that feeling guilty or applying guilt or shame for being embarrassed doing religious rituals in public and being labelled defacto spiritually or perhaps psychologically "weak" is helpful when in fact it may be that it is the more discerning and spiritual path. Indeed, lots to consider, more than I even originally thought and wrote about. Thanks!<br /><br />Tabitha, I would tend to agree with you... your kids are more important than bystanders. I will scandalize a bystander before I would scandalize my child's faith. However, as you say, if my children were not present, I would do what I do.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-2404776977865991272012-02-16T15:34:29.729-07:002012-02-16T15:34:29.729-07:00I remember reading that as part of his piety (pres...I remember reading that as part of his piety (presumably in obedience) St. John Maximovich walked barefoot. But then he was told, in Russian, to 'carry his shoes', which generally means to wear shoes. From then on, he used some creative piety, carrying his shoes in his hands wherever he went.<br /> My spiritual mother told me some time ago not to mind what others think, but that I should cross myself before Christ prior to eating. So of course, that is my practice.<br /> Another Orthodox woman one time told me that I should wear my cross as a blessing, under my shirt. And though she was pretty much a stranger, I took her word to be from God. So that has been my practice. (Maybe this sort of obedience is naive?) I sometimes wonder if God might ever send another who will tell me that I should wear my cross outside my shirt.toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07788920936014319970noreply@blogger.com