tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post115778238336713574..comments2024-01-07T04:57:21.347-07:00Comments on Pithless Thoughts: Orthodoxy and Same Sex AttractionSteve Robinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-41824446665406659082009-04-20T09:58:00.000-07:002009-04-20T09:58:00.000-07:00Hello,
thanks for your very supportive comments. S...Hello,<br />thanks for your very supportive comments. Since my last post one priest is looking out for a therapist for me who is Orthodox, another priest heard my confession at the Vigil and a good friend of mine is now a priest. All three are in different dioceses (jurisdictions); so things can suddenly look up. I have found Fr George Morelli's articles on the Antiochian US website. <br /><br />There have over the years been various Orthodox blogs similar to Courage Online such as SSA2Theosis and Orthodox Christian Men Struggling with SSA. They all seem to go dormant and get ceased. It might be good to have one that is well run and that has experienced people running it. It should, of course, be multi diocesan.English1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-72325600596599482672009-04-07T07:07:00.000-07:002009-04-07T07:07:00.000-07:00English 1, May God bless your struggles. Yes, life...English 1, May God bless your struggles. Yes, life is hard and each of us has a special demon that assaults us. We cannot trivialize nor aggrandize each other's temptations and passions even if they are not our own. Our only option in Christ is to co-struggle, and like the 4 friends in the Gospel, carry our crippled brother to Christ, tear down the roof and lower him to His feet for healing. It is the work of mercy.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-1531127675684596012009-04-07T04:22:00.000-07:002009-04-07T04:22:00.000-07:00Yes, hopefully so. There are very few clergy in th...Yes, hopefully so. There are very few clergy in the whole of London and the south east that will give time to someone who only speaks English. Even getting time for confession is very difficult, but it is not impossible. There is a very small window of opportunity that I will make use of even though such an opportunity is only occasional.<BR/><BR/>I will share a bit more. I am bisexual and am intensely fond of women but have no way of expressing it. I pray for them and support pro life things. Bisexual people get neither gender. Single people need good management. Your writings describe life as it is. It really is that tough but we get through it.English 1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-63758827914492091792009-04-06T18:05:00.000-07:002009-04-06T18:05:00.000-07:00Anon,alone and wingy in England, Thank you for you...Anon,alone and wingy in England, Thank you for your comments. SSA folks are really looking for what every human being is looking for: a community that will surround them with care and compassion. Perhaps it is because of my intense involvement in people's lives that I see everyone is in a great struggle and no one's is truly greater than another's. What is different is how the Church (or more precisely, individual Christians) reacts to certain people's issues. People can be cast aside or marginalized for many flaws and not only sexual ones, and the loneliness and desperation are just as deep. <BR/>May you find someone who is an icon of Christ within your fellowship.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-12811545113480855982009-04-06T09:15:00.000-07:002009-04-06T09:15:00.000-07:00I am a slightly infrequent blogger. I use public c...I am a slightly infrequent blogger. I use public computers. This is a great page and discussion and has cheered me up alot. <BR/><BR/>It is often assumed that all people who experience same sex attraction all want the possibility of gay sex but this not the case. This is generally assumed to be the case in secular circles and in some intellectual parts of the Orthodox community. There are many ssa folk who want fellowship and support in living appropriately as a single person. This is not easy to do. The social issues can be challenging. There are also ssa folk who are in Orthodox marriages and they need support as well. We are mostly left to fend for ourselves. This is inevitable to some extent and we must be strong. The Trinity and the Church are with us. <BR/>What is needed is good explanation of traditional teaching that includes various scenarios. Fr Hopko's book on ssa is good. We need to talk about the issue including the social issues to do with ssa. There also needs to be the chance of time with priests that have some empathy in dealing with people and who put things in a merciful, truthful way way. There needs to be trust between clergy of different dioceses and even different national backgrounds. Simply having that would be enormously helpful. But if we don't have these things, the truth will still be the truth.<BR/><BR/>Alone and wingy in England.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-39252694248542024212008-08-30T18:02:00.000-07:002008-08-30T18:02:00.000-07:00Couple thoughts...firstly,"Ultimately, gender defi...Couple thoughts...firstly,<BR/><BR/>"Ultimately, gender defines the human being, not sexuality."<BR/>0.o<BR/>and secondly,<BR/>"Sexuality is subsumed to that and CAN be an aspect of intimacy and yes, it feels good and makes us feel close, but it does not define intimacy, and in fact often is a barrier to true intimacy even within OSA relationships."<BR/>Which evokes more, 0.o<BR/><BR/>You need to check out jn1034.blogspot.com<BR/>They are an Eastern Orthodox human rights blog. They preach acceptance of homosexuality all the time along with equal rights among all people, regardless.<BR/><BR/>Best of jn1034<BR/><BR/>http://jn1034.blogspot.com/2007/07/terrorist-induced-self-hatred-and.html<BR/><BR/>http://jn1034.blogspot.com/2007/09/bed-as-church-at-home-sleeping-together.html<BR/><BR/>http://jn1034.blogspot.com/2007/06/mystery-of-touch-and-no-physical.html<BR/><BR/><BR/>However, I would like to thanks for your some of your insight. You were smart not sweep homosexuality under the rug as a disease that can be cured with drugs as so many "ex-gay" ministries would have you believe. As we both know, a lesbian isn't going to transform into a heterosexual if you teach her how to cook (besides, what if she already knows how to cook and be a stay at home mom? Oh dear...that fouls up the game plan big time). Your acknowledgment that protestants have a long way to go in understanding sexuality and even celibacy is a welcome insight from the usual advice given out by so many.<BR/><BR/>However, your portrayals of homosexuals, was..lacking in fairness, to be blunt. Not all homosexuals were abused. Many are gay because that's just who they are. Also, "the gay lifestyle" that I hear so much about, what is it? Are gay people suddenly addicted to "gay-fashion"? How about "gay-malls", "gay-online trading sites", "gay bars" the list goes on and on. But consider this...if I go to a stripper club, am I suddenly living the fullness of the "heterosexual-lifestyle"? What if I had "heterosexual car-insurance" can't be without that if your heterosexual.<BR/><BR/>Whole point short, there is no "gay-lifestyle", they pay their bills...some of 'em vote, most of 'em pay taxes and no...their not all promiscuous. You see that a lot in, "conversion stories of ex-gays", they say they were miserable and on meth and drugs. Well, yeah...I'll bet...meth alone could make anybody miserable, except they go on the package drug abuse as synonymous with homosexuality. Not a very good portrayal, but...hey...I guess if it sells to the homophobic crowd...(shrug).<BR/><BR/>Hopefully you will find the above articles to be of great interest. I'd be happy to hear what you think of them.Leftmosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01264352541547222243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-12700738701078391712008-02-02T22:13:00.000-07:002008-02-02T22:13:00.000-07:00Dear Anonymous,The word “asceticism” in Orthodox t...Dear Anonymous,<BR/>The word “asceticism” in Orthodox terms applies to everyone, it is not for monks, radically committed or zealots. It is the painful and long process of the healing of the soul of the human being ravaged by corruption, death and the futility of this fallen created order. To the degree that someone engages the process is the degree to which one will experience the healing of the soul. In that sense everyone is called to ascesis, the denial of the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the vainglory of life. These are manifest in manifold ways and every person has predispositions, issues and inclinations brought on through genetics, nature and nurture. The simple “need for approval” can be just as life encompassing, destructive and difficult to overcome than crack cocaine or any other addiction or psychological/emotional issue. It is in that sense that I say every human being has a depth of issues to overcome that are as difficult or more so than those who are dealing with SSA. In this sense I am not (as I’ve said many times on the blog) minimizing the struggle of homosexuals, I am informing homosexuals that they are not alone in the depths of despondency and despair that they face in trying to deal with the issues they face. It is in that sense that I believe that homosexuals often are “self centered” or narcissistic in their insistence that they are a group privileged to experience depths of despondency and despair to a depth that no one except other struggling homosexuals can understand. Again, not to minimize the truth of your struggles, but to level the field. I do not speak of it “as a disease” if you imply that I am addressing the issues in a condescending or accusatory manner, but the reality is, all human beings are diseased, all are afflicted and all struggle. The cure is the ascetic path. (For a somewhat deep wade into the Orthodox view of ascetic praxis’ role in the healing of the human being, I recommend 3 books by Heirotheos Nafpaktos Vlachos “Introduction to Orthodox Spirituality”, “Orthodox Psychotherapy”, “Illness and Cure of the Soul”). <BR/><BR/>If you read my blog, you see that I find the modern human being assaulted at all fronts by society, the culture and the world. The person who succumbs to Vogue, GQ, Toyota advertisements, Cosmo, or even ketchup bottles is immersed in an addiction and struggle within his soul that is real, debilitating, dangerous and can and will result in the loss of his true humanity. To “overcome the world” is to overcome ourselves and not succumb to it in any manifestation or temptation even as a heterosexual, married-with-kids poster child of societal propriety. <BR/><BR/>That said, yes, it is difficult to find true friendship, companionship and intimacy without sexual overtones and temptation… even for heterosexuals. Not every man is homophobic, I am certainly not. I have had friends who are homosexual. The problem with not having intimacy with me was not on my end. I would even venture to say that perhaps the reason there was not a deeper “male to male” relationship was because there ultimately would not be a sexual option. It is in this sense that I constantly critique the modern culture for its sexualized view of human relationships to males and females of any orientation. True intimacy begins with “me” and my views, expectations, desires and abilities to BE intimate…all of which are compromised by our sinfulness and our conscious and unconscious acceptance of the catechism of the culture of our age. <BR/><BR/>There are indeed pockets of homophobic culture within Churches. There are Churches that have no options for homosexuals. But there are options and relationships within Orthodoxy because of its more compassionate and I believe correct view of the nature of the issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-55671729856517070302008-02-01T22:09:00.000-07:002008-02-01T22:09:00.000-07:00I used the word ascetic with this definition in mi...I used the word ascetic with this definition in mind<BR/> "a person who dedicates his or her life to a pursuit of contemplative ideals and practices extreme self-denial or self-mortification for religious reasons. " <BR/><BR/> It may be a very simplistic and narrow definition, but it fits the idea that I assigned to the word.<BR/><BR/> You speak of Gays or SSA's a term that sounds like a disease, of being somewhat selfish. But the issue I have with that, is that here in the US or the Western world that we live in, it is expected that we grow up, maybe attend secondary and Post secondary school, we get married and we raise children and try to have some kind of life for ourselves. But for some, they spend there years starting soemwhere around puberty, of having to make the very difficult decision of deciding whether they go with the program and live a life of pretending that they too are heterosexual and go forward with the above described life timeline. the other choice is to choose the 'Gay" lifrstyle and decide that hey we want the same hopes, dreams and life that we see others have. It is not always the SEX componet that keeps being afixed to anyone that feels different, but we would like family, friends and to enjoy the usual gatherings and traditions we see others enjoy.<BR/><BR/> So we are often left with bad choices. 1. we fake it through life. 2. We come out and then immediatly we are shunned by the church and society in general. <BR/><BR/> Often it is said that being SSa or Gay is no different than (insert litany) of other life issues. But i feel it is a little more encompassing sometimes. Because in this society , life is based on becoming an adult and finding a companion and or having a family. If sexual attraction is the variable X for marriage, companionship, family and ultimatly community, then where does the "SSA" person fit in ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-64206168116162896552008-01-25T19:21:00.000-07:002008-01-25T19:21:00.000-07:00Hi Anonymous,I agree with your "assessment" of Exo...Hi Anonymous,<BR/>I agree with your "assessment" of Exodus and their bottom line. It is a disclaimer that, after years of working with homosexuals it is a reality it is impossible to avoid: "Change" is not always possible and holding out the promise or even the hope of complete change is in fact a recipe for despair and rejection of Christianity altogether. However it is not enough to just say "it is about holiness" without some kind of deep foundations for a theology of the human being that encompasses ALL deeply rooted issues, not ONLY SSA. I think this is where I take issue with your position: "we are more than monastics and ascetics" and juxtaposes an ascetical life with "wholeness, intimacy, family, relationships, etc.". The reality is that asceticism properly understood in the context of an Orthodox anthropology encompasses and enhances the possibility of relationships being MORE authentic to our nature, and wholeness, intimacy etc. are in fact the GOAL of asceticism, not only in the arena of SSA, but in every aspect of our lives no matter what our sexual orientations are. The definition of "wholeness" is not the "permission" to live according to our passions or feelings or perceived needs. No asceticism is pleasant or easy, nor is its outcomes and goals apprehended while we are engaged in them. The spiritual disciplines of ascetical praxis in an Orthodox framework encompasses the entirety of human existence, not just sexual orientations and in the final analysis, the roots of human despair and lack of intimacy and authentic relationships all boil down to a core of issues that are manifested in a multitude of human failure and weaknesses and SSA is merely one of those issues. That is why the Orthodox Church does not make homosexuality the unforgivable sin or demonize it, OR hold out false promises of healing and change because the glutton, the womanizer, the egoist, the narcissist, the miserly, the wrathful, the disobedient, the lazy, etc. etc. ALL face the same hard path to shedding their besetting weaknesses and finding healing and wholeness through arduous and prolonged struggle. At the risk of being offensive, I believe it is pretty narcissistic of SSA people who think they are a special case who have a more difficult burden to bear than other people who struggle with other life besetting issues. That does not minimize my appreciation for the great struggle SSA folks DO in fact have, but in the end we ALL struggle, and for those who take the spiritual life with any seriousness, it is a great struggle for us all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-19679401684139015482008-01-24T22:56:00.000-07:002008-01-24T22:56:00.000-07:00To start. I feel compassion for the woman who spok...To start. I feel compassion for the woman who spoke of the her Husband being gay. It must be such a conflict for both. I guess only the ones involved can decide whether the marriage is valid and one that should be sustained. I can only say that I am sorry for your grief.<BR/><BR/> As for the gentleman Nathan, I would not classify Exodus the leading group or thinkers on Homosexuality. If you read the subtext below most of their marketing, they now state that complete change is quite rare and they have employed cliches such as 'Its not heterosexuality, its Holiness" All well and good, but that does not for me cut to the center and core of deeper issues. <BR/><BR/> I wrote several posts up, regarding the feeling that Gays are expected to deny a whole aspect of who they are. Which ultimately relegates one to an existence of lonliness and dispair. I often believe that a lot of church scandals and scandals in our own personal lives, are in fact caused by denying ourselves a wholness. We are more than Monastics and asetics. We are people who need Love and crave relationships and Human touch. We also need famiies andd adult relationships. "It is not good for man to be alone"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-71774419636692024232008-01-10T22:48:00.000-07:002008-01-10T22:48:00.000-07:00Hi Nathan,Thank you for sharing your experience wi...Hi Nathan,<BR/>Thank you for sharing your experience with everyone. I have read quite a bit of material on SSA, and the article was not meant to be a complete exposition of all psychological/theological theories and treatment modalities, so your experience and viewpoint is appreciated to represent an aspect that was not among the experiences of those who participated in the interviews I conducted. (In fact some of them had experienced failures in similar treatment programs). While change is held out as the "Holy Grail" of SSA treatment programs, the reality is not everyone agrees with the theoretical psychological and theological frameworks that make change to hetereosexual desire the end game for the Christian with SSA. For those people, Christian Orthodoxy offers a framework and Christian life that deals with the issue without minimizing the struggle, demonizing the person or casting the person into despondency and delusion for not changing. This is not to say that change is not desireable and hoped for by many, but it is not a shoe that fits all. Again, thank you for your input. I pray you find the intimacy and love you desire in godly relationships of both genders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-5234624058480038332008-01-10T22:17:00.000-07:002008-01-10T22:17:00.000-07:00Hi, My name is Nathan, and I want to state very em...Hi, My name is Nathan, and I want to state very emphatically that change for someone with same sex attractions is possible. I have spent the last 4-5 years working on "becoming straight" and I will say that the change has been awesome and often times feels miraculous. I won't say that it wasn't hard. It has been one of the hardest things I have ever done and probably ever will do, but it has been totally worth it. If you would like info on the leading specialists in the SSA world, I would suggest looking up Exodus-International. It is a protestant organization, but they do have a lot of good material on the subject.<BR/><BR/>With that said, I do agree with your views of intimacy/sex. I do agree that intimacy of all levels can be achienved without some kind of sexual relationship. With all my experience with sexual relationships and research into human sexuality, I have to say that one of primary life desires is to have an intimate male friend with whom I can share my every day life. It is basically what the previous poster was talking about. Yes, sex is a great thing, and I would still like to have a wife someday, but there is still something very appealing about just having a good healthy same gender friendship where you can be totaly open, honest, and real with each other.<BR/><BR/>Now, even though I agree with your view on sex/intimacy, when it comes to SSA, I think it is incomplete. It seems that your view of ssa is that it is just another natural type of deprivation of man, like murder or stealing, due to sin. Coming from personal experience and doing various reading/research, that is not the case. I would like to preface my comments by saying that since my personal experience is in male ssa most of what I say will be primarily male ssa relevent. Ok, so your understanding of sex/intimacy explains why people want to have sex with each other, but it does not answer the question as to the object of sexual desire. From my experience, an understanding of human nature and how God made us as human beings, in all aspects i.e. emotionally, psychologically, sexually, etc., helps us put that into perspective. As far as male ssa goes, it is rooted in a gender identity issue. For someone who has ssa, there was a problem that occured during their natural psychological/sexual/emotional development and they became detached from their own gender. Most ssa men will say that they experienced such a detachment at a young age, which is why most of them feel like it is inborn, but for me it didn't happen until my pre-teen to early teen years. The point is that men need to feel connected and a part of their own gender group and if they don't develop that connection before puberty, that need to same gender emotional love, acceptance, and identification becomes eroticized. To put it simply, all a ssa man is doing is trying to feel like he is a man and part of the masculine crowd so to speak. I sincerely hope this helps with your undesrstanding of ssa, and I would be interested in exchanging emails if you have any questions.<BR/><BR/>Also I would like to thank you for your understanding and love for those who deal with ssa. It is not very often that people like me come across someone who can truely love them without fear or judgment while not understanding the problem. <BR/><BR/>I look forward to your response.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05373409028928700925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-64332286451692456252008-01-03T21:15:00.000-07:002008-01-03T21:15:00.000-07:00For those who feel that it isn't fair for heterose...For those who feel that it isn't fair for heterosexuals to have a legitimate way of finding sexual fulfillment, that isn't there for homosexuals... life isn't fair. Get used to it. I am married. But I live a celibate life, because my husband has SSA (yes, it is a disease, just like gluttony and anger and lust... a sickness of our souls that we need to be healed from). The only way for me to find sexual fulfillment would be outside of marriage, which is adultery. So I am 'stuck', as if I have SSA myself. In the words of a pervious poster: 'The idea of an intimate relationship, in which one might share a kiss or hold hands,is deemed, off limits.' <BR/><BR/>I'm learning about intimacy without sex. S-P is right. Greater intimacy can be achieved without sex. I find myself envying monastics. They have each other. Most of the time, I have no one. I'm not even single anymore, so I can't hang out with singles. I have kids, so I have responsibilities, that I feel I'm terribly underqualified for. Everyday, I wonder how much more I've damaged my kids, because they are growing up in an unhealthy home. A home in which their mother cringes like she's been whipped, whenever someone calls her Mrs or says 'wife'. Hopefully, it passes unnoticed behind my mask. I long to yell out: "I'm nobody's wife. I'm not really married. Don't call me Mrs, I've got my own name!" I shudder to think of what they're learning about marriage. <BR/><BR/>But you know what, I've learned that however painful my own life can be at times, I still haven't had to suffer to the point of shedding blood. There are many who live in more painful conditions that I do. Sexual fulfillment is the last thing on their minds. They are struggling to stay alive. They are struggling to find relief from pain. They're struggling for breath. I could go on... but who am I to speak? I do not know what true suffering means. <BR/><BR/>I need a friend. I don't need sex. I need someone who can listen to me without judging me. God knows my list of sins outweighs anybody's SSA. I need someone who will always be there for me, no matter what. I need someone who can be kind to me. I need someone who is strong enough to let me cry. And when I'm too tired to think, I need someone I can trust enough to think for me. Do you suppose it's possible for us to just befriend each other? Most people, especially in the West, have no one to talk to. People are lonely and misunderstood everywhere. Couldn't we... shouldn't we... just be friends and start caring for each other? Isn't everyone hurting?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-66812862820443723762007-11-14T23:12:00.000-07:002007-11-14T23:12:00.000-07:00Dear Anonymous,I don’t think in Orthodoxy it is “H...Dear Anonymous,<BR/>I don’t think in Orthodoxy it is “Homosexual=bad, Hetero=good”. Perhaps in some Christian circles that is preached. In the grand scheme of the Orthodox view of salvation, ANYONE who “acts on their feelings” risks not inheriting the kingdom. Our feelings are not the guide for life and godliness. What “feels natural” or often brings us comfort or happiness may in fact be ungodly and in fact ultimately a denial of our true personhood. No where are we commanded to deny friendship, intimacy, love, or deep commitment to another human being. In fact, those are what makes us human. The challenge for both the heterosexual and homosexual is how to do that in a godly way that does not involve the flesh, passions and violate our own bodies. “Eunuch” in the context of the Gospel is not an involuntary castration, but a voluntary walk for the sake of the “beauty of virginity” which is a phrase one NEVER hears in our modern culture. We are not asked to deny our personhood, but our flesh. We are not asked to deny the image of God in which we are created, we are to deny our passions. This is not just for homosexuals, it is for all people regardless of how natural or passionately they feel about any relationship. Homosexuals are not singled out in the sin of fornication or adultery. Any sexual sin by any person is a violation of an aspect of our true personhood. Marriage is prescribed by God as ONE path to salvation. Marriage is one, virginity is another. Both have their benefits and problems. Heterosexual marriage is more than just sexual intimacy, and anyone who has been married for any length of time will tell you sex is the first thing to go when emotional intimacy is lost or violated. The grass is not greener with a “license to have sex” if that is what marriage is seen as. As I mentioned, marriage may appear on the outside to be “God’s license for sex” to some, but even within marriage that aspect can and often does become through no fault of the partners, unavailable and impossible. What then? Marriage does not survive on sex, nor is sex necessary for marriage and all of its “non-physical” intimacies to thrive and deepen. As I’ve mentioned before, homosexuals are not the only class of human beings who are denied the “right to sex” by the Christian faith. Sexual intimacy is not a human right. While the culture might guarantee us the “pursuit of happiness” the Gospel does not. The Gospel guarantees us the pursuit of full personhood and gives us the prescription for it. As strong an instinct and feeling it may be in the human being, sexual intimacy is not a necessity to the realization of personhood nor is it necessary for the attainment of deep communion and intimacy with another human being, male or female regardless of orientations. <BR/><BR/>I hear the loneliness and despair in your “voice”. Homosexuals are not the only people on earth who are alone, wanting friendship, intimacy and connection. The world is full of desperate and lonely people who do not know how to connect with another human being, to have intimacy that is not defined by sexuality and physicality. I meet them every day. In that sense we are victims of our culture that force feeds us sex-as-intimacy and fulfillment as a human being through sex and romance. We have bought a false definition and then despair that our lives will never look like that definition. But again, this is all easy to talk about on the internet. It is desperately hard to come to terms with in the middle of the night when we have no one to share a bed with and every cell in our body wants a warm body next to us no matter what our orientation is. That is the struggle. And no pontification on theology will make it easy. Forgive me if I have sounded like I have minimized the pain. That is the furthest thing from my intention.<BR/>May God grant you love,<BR/>s-pSteve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-6139728856371847272007-11-14T20:55:00.000-07:002007-11-14T20:55:00.000-07:00Gee just what I needed to hear "Eunuch" This is wh...Gee just what I needed to hear "Eunuch" This is why I struggle and have doubts in regards to the Whole, Homosexual=bad Heterosexual=good thing. I know that I am simplifying things, but in reality, thats what it is. I hear one side debate scriptural interpetation and context, then the other side is always reminding Homosexuals that they will not inheret the kingdom if they act on their feelings. <BR/><BR/> But what it comes down for me, is. If I have to deny what feels natural for me. it means more then a life without sex. It means a life without a very important type of intimacy. more than a good friend or buddy. It means not having a partner to share and walk through life with. It means no dates. It for me, limits my life and leaves me feeling less than Human. When I hear Eunuch, I envision someone who's manhood has been denied by force or by choice. I know for me, that it is not something that I have beeb gifted. For me to deny my personhood, is for me a curse. <BR/><BR/> I am the type that needs to see the big picture. the question that always comes to mind for me, is why? It is not like we are choosing to lie or be disobedient. it is a person, seeking companionship and Love. <BR/><BR/> As we grow older, friends are more fleeting. people have families and Lives to lead. The person that has not this, is not left with a lot. Just some random thoughts that I have.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-86747274378985130922007-11-13T22:10:00.000-07:002007-11-13T22:10:00.000-07:00Hi Anonymous,It is always with great fear that I a...Hi Anonymous,<BR/>It is always with great fear that I address "intimacy/sex" issues because they come off sounding callous, uncompassionate and patronizing. I think both homosexuals and heterosexuals are victims of our Western romanticized and sexualized culture. While sex CAN be AN expression of intimacy, it is not the highest or deepest or best. I think everyone would agree that the highest expression of love and intimacy was Christ on the Cross in His self sacrifice for the human race. Sex or even physical contact is not a necessity for intimacy. Availability of sexual expression for a "class" of people does not really mean anything to the individual person who it is denied to because of physical, psychological or some personal other defect that keeps them from being able to have a partner. It was news to a homosexual man I was having a discussion with that heterosexuals incapable of having a "legitimate heterosexual relationship" feel just as strongly and have to fight just as hard against lust, fornication and passions as a homosexual. Just because it is "biblically legitimate" does not make the struggle any less intense if it cannot be had. It is not only the homosexual that MUST chose to be "eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom" in spite of not having the "gift". Perhaps the gift is being offered but not being engaged in and the recipients are looking for the other "gifts" of sex and passion. The counsel for all, regardless of orientation, reasons for inability to have a heterosexual marriage is the same: celibacy. As with ANY besetting sin, orientation, inclination and habit, the promise by God is the same: The thorn may never be removed but His grace is sufficient. Forgive me if I have sounded uncaring, that is the furthest from the truth. May God bless you in your struggle.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-57818668864222857982007-11-13T21:09:00.000-07:002007-11-13T21:09:00.000-07:00I do not like the term SSA myself. It reminds me o...I do not like the term SSA myself. It reminds me of a particular Conservative Christian forum, that will not allow the term homosexual. They insist on SSA. It sounds almost like it is a disease.<BR/><BR/> But as far as relationships go. heterosexuals, at least have the opportunity to have a loving partner in life. I believe the continued use of the term orgasm, reduces an intimate partnership to one that is primarily sexual. I would say NO. I believe that the sexual aspect, is the culmination of a deep intimate relationship. It is the ultimate expression of Love in intimacy.<BR/> But again, the person that is Homosexual, is expected to deny that fact. The idea of an intimate relationship, in which one might share a kiss or hold hands,is deemed, off limits. This is the part,in which I think suppression of thse feelings, leads to undesired results.Such as the priest scandals, or annonymous sex. <BR/><BR/> The scripture speaks of celibacy as gift, but it is not for all. Again the scripture reminds us "it is not good for man to be alone. The Homosexual person is left no alternative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-25412322800304042472007-03-29T18:19:00.000-07:002007-03-29T18:19:00.000-07:00Hi A-GThanks, I'm glad the article helped you. If...Hi A-G<BR/>Thanks, I'm glad the article helped you. If you are interested in more "thinking like this" visit the link from my blog "My Radio Show". There's a lot of stuff there that you might find interesting and challenging and it all forms the foundations for this approach to the human condition and our relationship to God. Email me privately if I can be of any other help.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-86534581952201520572007-03-29T09:23:00.000-07:002007-03-29T09:23:00.000-07:00wow. How well written. Probably the most thorough ...wow. How well written. Probably the most thorough article I've ever read on the subject. You not only touched on the common points of the subject in a Biblical manner, you touched on the root of sin in each of our lives. Fantastic. I currently serve as the youth pastor @ a pentecostal church. I wish more people from our church thought like that. Truth is truth. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-1162579731907430112006-11-03T11:48:00.000-07:002006-11-03T11:48:00.000-07:00Thanks for the reading list, I'm starting with The...Thanks for the reading list, I'm starting with The Person In The Orthodox Tradition.(Metropolitan Nafpaktos Hierotheos) The challenge is gathering a list of his books under his different names! <BR/><BR/>Anonymous #2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-1160603152507792142006-10-11T14:45:00.000-07:002006-10-11T14:45:00.000-07:00Hi Alan,I can honestly concur with many of your po...Hi Alan,<BR/>I can honestly concur with many of your points regarding the lifestyle of many nominal Orthodox and their attitude toward the DL. That said, I've been around enough Ev's to know there's plenty of nominalism to go around there too, so I don't think we'll get far comparing the bottoms of our respective barrels and judging the theologies of holiness of each tradition by their responses to it, nor is it helpful to compare the relative benefit of the length of time someone exposits a scripture passage...the benefit depends on the content, not length of time, yes? We both have holy people in our respective traditions, so each tradition is fully capable of generating love for God and personal holiness, and each can produce arrogant, nominal and deceived people. We agree perfectly on that, yes? :) <BR/><BR/>Regarding the rest of your post, at the risk of sounding like I am brushing off the discussion and/or am incapable or not interested in pursuing it, each of the issues you (actually, that I) brought up would in fact be a book to reply to and I just don't have time to write those books on my blog. However I can refer you to a few resources for Orthodox views on "original sin" (not in the RC sense), personhood, holiness/monastisticm, theosis, etc. I'd begin with all the books by Heirotheos Nafpaktos Vlachos, "Deification in Christ" by Panyiotis Nellas, "The Mountain of Silence", "Ancestral Sin" by Romanides, and "Orthodox Spirituality" by Dimitru Staniloae to start. I wish I had time to hash all this out for you, but I just don't. I took the time to read Protestant books for about 30 years of my life (I still have most of the books I've read), and I've been reading Orthodox books for the last 14 years. You just gotta do the work if you want to know stuff. I commend you for your inquisitive and sincere spirit of conversation and kindness in your inquiry and responses. May the Spirit of God continue to give you wisdom and peace in your walk in Christ.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-1160578330762881132006-10-11T07:52:00.000-07:002006-10-11T07:52:00.000-07:00s-p,Hi there. Sorry for delaying so long. In res...s-p,<BR/><BR/>Hi there. Sorry for delaying so long. In response:<BR/>--theology of personhood<BR/>>>Afraid I've not studied any theology of personhood per se, so I'm not sure what to say to this. But in terms of "encompassing sexuality and gender", I don't know to what you might refer, but I think my own worldview on the subject encompasses such questions quite well. <BR/>It occurs to me that your comment might be related to your later comment about the "Protestant" doctrine of sanctification. I'll say "Evangelical" since "Prot" is so much broader (though even the term "Evangelical" has been stretched all out of shape today). <BR/>At any rate, it is a common and mistaken complaint by O-dox and RCs against Ev doctrine that it treads light on sanctification. I just don't see it, sorry. I do see a TON of cultural O-dox who don't care for anythg as long as they get to the DL once/month or so. I know of several who claim to be serious about their faith and yet use profanity, drink beyond moderation, and show other lapses in good judgment. When I consider that O-dox DLs have very little in terms of teaching the Word of God compared to a 50-minute expository sermon by my pastor (for example, to say nothing of Bible studies and other training classes outside of the "Sunday morning servce"), and when I look at so many of my fellow church mbrs living sanctified godly lives, it's no contest.<BR/><BR/>--The second area would be sin and its consequences, both original sin and personal sin.<BR/>>>Wasn't aware that O-doxy held to original sin, so again, I guess I missed you. And in what way is Ev doctrine inferior to O-dox doctrine of personal sin?<BR/><BR/>--The fourth area would be both theological/practical and that is monasticism as a valid expression of the Christian life<BR/>>>I don't see how this relates to SSA, to be honest. <BR/><BR/>--the "works-o-phobia" of modern evangelicalism has prevented them from looking seriously at what it takes for a human being to be healed of sin<BR/>>>On the contrary, the doctrine of justification by grace alone thru faith alone is under serious attack in Ev-ism today. It's only by HOLDING TO that doctrine and clearly distinguishing it from sanctification that we can arrive at the biblical model and walk God's path.<BR/>However, sadly, the O-dox position is on the wrong end of that exchange, so I don't see how it creates a better scenario. <BR/><BR/>--A mantra like repetition of "unconditional forgiveness", a reliance on the possibility of miraculous "change", and a nod at living a "Christian life as a consequence of our salvation by faith" doesn't adequately cover the territory in my mind.<BR/>>>"Unconditional forgiveness" = Romans 8:1, 1 John 1:9<BR/>"Reliance on the possibility" = certainly it's POSSIBLE and has happened. Never heard of that being the only option put forth, though.<BR/><BR/>--Juridical forgiveness is top of the list of "human necessity in relationship with God".<BR/>>>Precisely b/c, w/o it, we have NO righteousness. Romans 3-5. Nothing else matters if I stand condemned.<BR/><BR/>--juridical forgiveness is a subset of the bigger picture<BR/>>>certainly it is (indeed, it's the primary subset), but O-dox doctrine doesn't even take it into acct. "Subset" means it's a part, but that's not true of O-doxy.<BR/><BR/>--Being conformed to the image of Christ is far more than merely being absolved of juridical consequences/guilt.<BR/>>>Indeed, but you can't be conformed w/o it. Why? B/c you don't have the Holy Spirit w/o it.<BR/><BR/>--Bodily ascesis (crucifying the passions) and adding godly virtue are not merely nice trimmings on the tree, they ARE the tree, because that is what we are called to in our flesh.<BR/>>>No, rather, they are the tree becoming what it already is by virtue of its transformation from darkness to light, from enemy of God to child of God, from old man to new man, from old things to new creation. As Eph 2:8-10 says, we are saved (ie, justified) UNTO good works. Not BY them.<BR/><BR/><BR/>You said it might take a book to cover it and I think that might be true. But if you want to take a stab at it and help me understand what you mean, that would be great.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>ALANRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-1160449772568757832006-10-09T20:09:00.000-07:002006-10-09T20:09:00.000-07:00Hi Anon,I think just the phrase "healing from sin"...Hi Anon,<BR/>I think just the phrase "healing from sin" is a concept that is off the radar screen for most evangelicals. Juridical forgiveness is top of the list of "human necessity in relationship with God". From my perspective juridical forgiveness is a subset of the bigger picture of "what does it take for the human being to realize his ontological goal?" Being conformed to the image of Christ is far more than merely being absolved of juridical consequences/guilt. It is pressing (conforming) our humanity (ALL of it that Christ assumed, body, soul and spirit) into His image and likeness as a human being. It is not only about saving our "souls", otherwise Christ would only have needed to assume a human soul and not a body. So, that is kind of where I'd start with the evangelical. Bodily ascesis (crucifying the passions) and adding godly virtue are not merely nice trimmings on the tree, they ARE the tree, because that is what we are called to in our flesh.<BR/>Anything short of that falls short of Christ Himself as a man.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-1160416167700765112006-10-09T10:49:00.000-07:002006-10-09T10:49:00.000-07:00Love your article, I've passed it on to others. As...Love your article, I've passed it on to others. As a former evangelical, I've come to the same conclusion about the Theology of Man and the lack of it in evangelical circles resulting in compartmentalizing sin into a variety of "ministries" and "para church" organizations, problems are sometimes regarded as something that shouldn't be happening to a "saved" person. So their psychological care must be found somewhere else. What would you say to an evangelical about what it takes to be healed from sin? I think you're so right that there is an incomplete understanding of the human condition. I wish i could better explain it to my friends:(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7656667.post-1160094709958539552006-10-05T17:31:00.000-07:002006-10-05T17:31:00.000-07:00Hi Rhology,Hmmmm... good question and one that cou...Hi Rhology,<BR/>Hmmmm... good question and one that could end up being a book. I think I'd probably distill the differences down to a few issues. One would be a theology of "personhood" (see Vlachos "The Person in Orthodox Thought". I don't think the modern evangelical has a theology of personhood that encompasses and deals with sexuality and gender very well. The second area would be sin and its consequences, both original sin and personal sin. A third area would be "theosis" or even sanctification as the Protestants understand it (or don't understand it). What is the meaning of ascesis, virtue and forgiveness and how do they intersect within our humanity in our relationship with God? The fourth area would be both theological/practical and that is monasticism as a valid expression of the Christian life, (and not just for homosexual issues). These are huge areas and issues, and I think in many ways the "works-o-phobia" of modern evangelicalism has prevented them from looking seriously at what it takes for a human being to be healed of sin. A mantra like repetition of "unconditional forgiveness", a reliance on the possibility of miraculous "change", and a nod at living a "Christian life as a consequence of our salvation by faith" doesn't adequately cover the territory in my mind.Steve Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319784922747041297noreply@blogger.com